What is the connection between people who have high IQs or who are very talented or creative and depression or other mental disorders?

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IQ doesn't have anything to do with the way someone thinks. But a high IQ combined with wrong thinking leads to extra creative wrong thinking.

Also, people suffering from narcissistic disorders tend to exaggerate their intelligence.

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I have been receiving treatment for major depression and social anxiety for years. And, I, personally, have been tested and evaluated. My IQ has been in the Genius range on the tests I've been given -- from grade school age to very recently. On aptitude tests given to me at different times in my life I have demonstrated myself to be highly creative and talented in specific areas. There is no exaggeration on my part. A person who is fighting depression is more likely to downplay his or her skills and gifts. In the grips of depression, one often feels and calls himself worthless. I've worked hard in my therapy to finally accept that not only am I not worthless, I am above average. My illness was what had been holding me back and keeping me from realizing my full potential. My chosen occupation and hobbies also demonstrate my abilities. As a writer, a professional (and published) songwriter, an artist/photographer, and a freelance creative consultant, I've demonstrated my abilities time and again.

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I think it all comes down to extreme sensitivity. There are times when I feel this trait allows me to thrive in my creative job--really stand out; other times, I find it a crippling weakness. It seems to me that superior creativity is really nothing more than a life preserver a drowning person builds and throws to himself. Sometimes this preserver is of such quality and innovation that the person reaches the shore and people look at it and say "Wow, look what you created!" when really it was an act of desperation that had little to do with the item itself.

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"IQ doesn't have anything to do with the way someone thinks. But a high IQ combined with wrong thinking leads to extra creative wrong thinking.

Also, people suffering from narcississistic disorders tend to exagerate their intelligence."

IQ has an awful lot to do with the way one thinks. I DO agree that "high IQ combined with wrong thinking leads to extra creative wrong thinking." However, some of the most manipulative, sneaky and immoral 'wrong-thinkers' also have less that stellar IQs. Often in the average to low average range.

I am not Narcissistic. My IQ has been tested and documented. I don't think I am highy intelligent -- I AM above average. But I am also chronically, severely depressed. I have adult ADD and crippling social anxiety. I'm under a psychiatrist's care and I'm being treated so that I can, at least, function in society.

I am an artist, photographer, writer, published songwriter and inventor.

My close friends and some of my family include: writers, artists, songwriters, musicians, robotics engineers, computer programmers, actors, entrepreneurs... many of them also suffer from depression, OCD, ADD, and other mental disorders.

This is not uncommon.

To those of you who have responded with more supportive replies, I thank you. I, too, will continue to seek information.

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Most people who suffer from depression, panic attacks, etc., are usually highly intelligent people. They are extremely creative and wear their hearts on their sleeves. Often they put themselves last and thus, can burn out.

I have a high IQ myself, (don't believe in them anyway) and the smartest people I have met are actually people that have a lesser education and have endured life's trials the hard way. I listen well to these people and personally, find high achievers that crow about it very boring. A highly intelligent person does not usually know they are intelligent and usually dislikes being classed as this.

I have battled panic attacks, Agoraphobia and depression and won. I have studied all three since 1969. There is absolutely no correlation between high IQ and people who suffer depression or any other so-called mental disorder.

Edgar Allen Poe was badly depressed, did coke and look at the books he put out. You either love this guy or hate him. Kim Bassinger, Sally Field, Patty Duke, Abraham Lincoln, Donny Osmond, to name a few have all suffered from either panick attacks, depression or other maladys related.

It takes guts to deal with depression but at the end, we are wiser for it and thus, we help others. Research all you like, go on the internet, but I go to the horse's mouth! That's power and that's intelligence!

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Obsessive Compulsive Disorder is the result of an overfocus. The same process that creates genius (overfocus) also leads to unhealthy overfocus, ie OCD, Asberger's, Autism. This is a simplistic explanation, but accurate. The ability to focus intently on one concept is a double-edged sword. NurseExecutive@webtv.net

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Brad - FYI to all those who think 127 or 123 or anything in that range is genius - not even close its average. GENIUS IQ is well above 140+ ..well above.

I have many of the same problems that you are experiencing. I am 19 years old and have a tested Iq of 127 respectively. I was diagnosed with ADD when I was younger, also PTSD(supposedly, not entirely true I believe), I also was diagnosed with bi-polar disorder last year, for which I seek professional counselling for along with medication.

I have also been investigating this phenomenom of 'mad genius' I like to call it. My house is a mess and I find it very hard to organize anything for very long. On the other hand on somethings I am extremely particular about, severe almost. I have noticed certain extremes within my own self, there never seems to be the happy medium. Something like all or nothing thinking, which in itself can be damaging to ourselves.

I myself suffer from social anxiety mainly due to the fact I find it extremely hard to relate to other people. I feel as though I am a prisoner of my own mind in a way. Depression, sleeplessness, and racing thoughts have all become natural in my life. This is not how I want it though. I hear what you are saying when thoughts just keep going into other thoughts and into seperate ones. I often feel as though I am losing grip pf reality in a sense.

I believe that the smarter you are, the more capable and easier it is for your mind to convince yourself of something. Or maybe it becomes much easier to let distorted views of what you perceive to be real be altered, whether that be consciously or not. Im not really sure where im going with this but I was just writing to say that I can understand how you feel.

As for the comment about "IQ doesn't have anything to do with the way someone thinks. But a high IQ combined with wrong thinking leads to extra creative wrong thinking."

I very strongly believe in this comment. Sometimes but not always smart people tend to take the easy way out. It depends alot on how you wired your own brain to think. I know this becasue just recently I was incarcerated for producing counterfeit money when I was 17 years old. After 16 months in a penetentiary I came to the realization that smart people dont think a certain way, but smart minds can breed very smart acts of destruction toward society. I in no means think I am a smart human being, having proved this to myself while in prison. What I did was a very good example of how distorted thinking combined with the intellectual know-how can become dangerous. I was incredibly creative with what I did, and i'll be honest with you, in a strange way I am somewhat pround of what I did. Now, had I made money the legal way I wouldnt have wasted a year and a half of my life, nor would I feel all this regret about everything. In my experience nothing is easy.

AS for your question, im not sure i answered it but hoped by sharing my story it gives you a further insight. If ya want to talk sometime my email is lokd_out@hotmail.com..

Thank-you

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Hi, my IQ was around 150 when I took the WISC in third grade. (Don't know what it is now, think it may have dropped a bit since then.) I have never thought of myself as extremely smart per se--never made excellent grades in school, don't give a crap about politics--but I have dealt with maladjustment throughout the course of my life. I have ongoing clinical depression, OCD, and anxiety with related vocal cord dysfunction. I was also painfully shy as a youth, and though I don't see myself as shy now, I'm easily intimidated by bold types of people. At 25, with two college degrees, I can't hold a job--people see me as standoffish, weird, pedantic and boring. I also have a recent informal diagnosis of ADD, which may or may not be correct.

To get to your question, I believe that overproduction of dopamine is a factor in both creativity and mental illness (drugs for schizophrenia block the dopamine receptors in the brain). I have issues with serotonin, myself, but I think the brain chemistry is very closely interstructured. The stats tell us that both OCD and schizophrenia have a correlation with a high IQ.

My own opinion is that, whatever the neurophysics behind it, we geniuses just think too damn much, and that'll make anyone crazy.

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There does seem to be a link between mental health, creativity and intelligence. Have researched anxiety disorders, panic, OCD. Most who suffer from these things are extremely smart. A good movie to see, sounds strange doesn't it, but the movie "The Aviator" is about a man who created planes and an airport, he suffered OCD to the extreme. Just shows you the link I believe. Doesn't matter what others say, but I am yet to meet someone with a disorder who is not highly intelligent.

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I've often wondered about the connection between depression/mental disorders and high IQ/highly creative people. The topic surfaced in my mind again today, and my internet search led me to this site.

I'm going to throw in an additional angle...partially due to my own curiosity, and partially to give you all something to think about! What, if any, influence does your star-sign/astrological sign/zodiac sign have on things like IQ/creativity and mental disorders like depression?

audge

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Hi... I have a high IQ myself and I must warn everyone who's not awear of what follows... neuroleptics (some types of psychiatric drugs) will limit your brain... maybe permanently (I'm doing a lot of research on it so that I might figure it out) I was diagnosed with psychotic decompensation simply because: 1... you could say my thoughts went ''beyond''... and 2... I was honest enough to always tell the truth (I mean what I really thought). This resulted in getting locked up against my will after I refused to speak to psychiatrists that were brought to me by my parents... and while locked up being forced to swallow pills that they told me would help me order my thoughts and sleep... explaining that I had never needed drugs to help me order my thoughts or sleep (I was sleeping BTW... when a nurse woke me up to give me pills I didn't know I would be given) idiotic medic in charge who was looking at me like I was less than a person didn't do much good. What I'm going at is... psychiatry is bad... and this I have learned first by realizing that something was different in me (I find my mind becoming more and more what it used to be as time goes by... my sad but true hope is that one day I'll be the person I was) (I'm 18 BTW) , by reading what ''psychiatric survivors'' shared, and by researching on what it is that neuroleptics do to one's brain. Please think twice before taking psychiatric drugs.

I want to add that I'm a musician and that the psychiatric drugs killed my creativity... temporarily for sure... and maybe some of it for good.

I see that often ''average'' people try to put bright people down... and too often they succeed... someone brighter or more creative than the average person shouldn't be modified so that person would become more like the average one... use it instead!

lee_irw@hotmail.com

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I tested once and my IQ was 123 now I'm not sure if that is high enough to be considered a "high" IQ, I think genius was 130, but I also suffer from alot of the "symptoms" that have been described here. I have always wondered if it was just me or if this is normal for smarter people. I did'nt really see a answer to the question in specific but it does seem it got answered. I'd say that social anxiety seems to be pretty common as does depression and racing thoughts. I struggle everyday to shut myself up. I mean yap yap yap all day long from one thought to another, I can't even watch T.V. my brain just won't let me. Forget sleeping at night. I am a very pretty, thin women and I feel I have a high self esteem but I am horribly intimidated by bolder, loud, outgoing people. I'm shy and withdrawn from "normal" society. I also feel that I am boring because I am incapable of haveing a conversation that is about bullshit. I feel I have to act stupid to fit in. Reading all the comments that have been contributed to this question made me feel a little better. It won't make me feel any less akward though I'll still be the only person that can hold a decent conversation.

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Having much in common with others who've answered here, I felt compelled to add this after reading a comment many will dismiss as silly, about the correlation with astrology. Having studied and dabbled in astrology- not just sun sign nonsense, but much more complex- for over 30 years, I've always wondered if certain unusual elements of my chart, when studied, would correlate with the charts of others with high IQs, high creativity. One in particular involves a number of 'Retrograde Planets' in one's birth chart, that appear to be travelling backward and seem to correlate with introversion, shyness, a certain inwardness, differences in relation to one's orientation in time, and being a relatively 'old soul' or one who has lived many past lives, experienced and learned a great deal, developed talents more thoroughly- or a variety of talents,creative abilities.

My parents were told of my 160 IQ when I was 10 or 11, and really had no idea how to deal with it. I thought it was a mistake, certain I was stupid. After all, my mind went blank when teachers called on me, and I couldn't carry on a simple conversation. A list a teacher shouldn't have left out in High School confirmed the 160 figure (to my entire class). I think knowing helped build at least some confidence in me, but of course didn't relieve the paralyzing shyness. As I grew older, and as a result of loosening up and having life experiences, primarily by self-medicating (in the late-60's, early 70's), I became a bit less shy. But Social Anxiety Disorder and Social Avoidance have influenced every aspect of my life...sometimes in ridiculous ways. (Some of you may know...) Then there's the Clutter/Pack Rat behavior that I only recently discovered to be OCD. It's negative impact on my life and peace of mind continues to be devastating. (Although it affected my now-grown daughter, I'm thankful she turned out all right-- intelligent, but quite normal, even capable of happiness.)

Choices I've made may account for lack of financial success in life, but those choices were shaped by the entire package that does seem to accompany above-average intelligence and sensitivity. In fact, I've actively avoided success or anything that might put me in a position to be noticed. Funny thing is, I avoided the limelight but have found myself attracting attention in various ways throughout my life. I guess I've been drawn in two directions all my life, with only my individual, quiet pursuit of answers to those essential life questions affording me any satisfaction. The pursuit of spiritual, 'mystical' knowledge-- primarily by following my intuitive sense-- has afforded enough answers and peace to counter the depression and suicidal thoughts that have been part of me since early childhood. The answers I've found have allowed me to face near-death, a liver transplant (with mixed feelings), and then learning I'm still dying, need a 2nd transplant, with my sense of humor and balance intact. (I've decided against another transplant.)

As a child of the 60's, (and I was a true believer before I knew others felt the same...and still hold those same values), I don't miss financial success (except for the spiritual/mental advancement experiences being perpetually- broke denies me... and now the needed healing techniques also priced far out of my range...) It becomes most difficult, though, when I think about wasted abilities, talents, potential, and begin thinking I've completely failed to accomplish whatever I was meant to do during this lifetime. (Which means I'll have to repeat this in another life. I'd like to be finished with reincarnating on earth!) That thinking, feeling I've failed my own Higher Self- more prevalent lately- perhaps because I'm now 4 years post-transplant, and more stuck in-between than ever- is what led me to do the search that brought me here today...

It seems there are many of us...Does anyone know of a group, forum, list or whatever for this topic. (I'm not even sure exactly what THIS is...).

ViaParadox

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Wow...this is possibly the most comforting group of posts I've ever read. Personally, I tested in the high 130s around age 9 or 10, hard to remember now, and refused all offers for me to skip grades in school, because I did not want to be a freak. It is for this same reason that I believe I adeptly learned how to mask my intelligence in conversation, how to not use and even not learn words that were beyond most of my peers, and how I was more a part of the group the lower my grades were. From 5th grade on, my marks became progressively worse while I became inverse proportionally popular. How many of us have felt guilt or shame for our superiority?

I do not mean to sound Narcissistic, but at least in the areas of study and the arts, those of us with higher or genius IQs are superior. This is the point of the test. And I believe that it is accusations of ego and "Narcissism" that drive us back down into our holes, where we are no longer free to express ourselves, no longer free to be ourselves. We wish to be normal, to be like the others, and to have their respect, not their jealousy, so we retreat into our own heads. This, I wager, leads to the kinds of psychological disorders we have been discussing here. I contend that it is not that being intelligent leads to depression, OCD, agoraphobia, and the like, but that repression of creative and cerebral instincts forces these to manifest in unhealthy ways.

We have been brainwashed into behaving and believing that we are less than what we are--either less intelligent or less human, or in some cases, both--and our peers of lower intelligence have been brainwashed into ridiculing and outcasting us, so that they feel superior to us, because we're actually very bad at hiding it. How many of those bullies and elder abusers are smarter than THEY think they are, and so feel stupid in your presence and have to push you down to their imaginary intelligence level? Into your hole that can only breed self-loathing?

As far as so-called "disorders" such as schizophrenia, bi-polarism, et al. are concerned, I was recently having a discussion with a friend of mine whose IQ makes me seem like an idiot child, in which we supposed, "What if schizophrenia and things like psychosomatic illness are actually signs of a brain that has out-evolved its society's ability to treat it?" It would be highly confusing for a new brain to try to organize itself in the absence of precedent, esp. when combined with everyone around you telling you that something is wrong with you (much like deaf children being diagnosed retarded), which is similar to the rest of the problem that worsens people like our mental states.

Anywho, just some food for thought, guys. Thanks for the conversation.

doug r.

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I don't even know how I stumbled upon this interesting stream of posts, but I'm sure glad that I did. I have never actually taken an IQ test other than the odd free online tests where I consistently scored close to 140. I too suffer from panic attacks and social anxiety, yet I perform very well in a social setting. I am able to talk and express myself with ease around people, but the thought of doing so often prevents me from actually ever leaving home. Most people see me as energetic and upbeat when in reality I am quite the opposite.

I do find though that I have the ability to understand people extremely quickly. I at first thought that it was I being judgemental, however after speaking to some close friends, I found that I could really understand and truly know a person, without even really speaking to them. Being raised religiously, I am not one to believe in psychics and really anything extraordinary, but it's a strange thing to witness. I find that this really dampers my ability to really socialize with people. I can understand their true ambitions and intent, which too often are negative and incongruent with my own feelings and intentions. I am able to 'fake' a personality to be polite and fun for others, but doing so is no fun for me.

I continue in my attempt to better understand myself and I believe that is all anyone can ever do. There is a correlation between how a person thinks (their IQ) and how they deal with social environment, which is based on your EI or Emotional Intelligence, how one relates with others.

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Hi,

I came across this site because I have been experiencing some severe crippling depression. I don't know what my IQ tested at as a child, but I know that I was part of a study and that some people came to the house to ask me questions. But later my mother explained that to tell me my score would ruin the test results and she didn't tell me. I take online tests that put me around 140, but I don't know how accurate those are. What I do know is that I was always in the highest classes in school. I know that I was treated as a freak, beaten up on the playground, and teased because of the way I talked. " Ohh yes I beleive that is a very complicated question" ha ha ha. Later, I became popular in high school partially because puberty was good to me and partially because I learned to say, "I don't know" when I was asked a question. (doing other's homework didn't hurt either.) During my childhood, I was extremely creative. My stories and poems were always read by the teacher, and once I even won a writing contest that I didn't even enter thanks to a teacher that sent my entry in without telling me. But I was also a bet wetter, right up until puberty. And I spent my entire 4th grade year and part of my 5th in the house. Only leaving to go to school. During those years I had created an entire city of homemade paperdolls that when spread out, filled my entire bedroom floor, and I was always playing with them because my fantasy world was so much more beautiful and real to me. I would stay up all night writing stories, I just couldn't stop. It was literally driving me insane. But I learned to deal with it. I learned that the world you create with your mind, the one you seem to be lost in right now, is only one world, and that there is also a physical world that I wanted to experience. I decided to take part in it. I did my best to seem like anyone else, knowing that in doing it I could have both worlds, not just one. so I gave up writing and ignored the "things that make you go hmm". Those things that suck you in for days and make you forget all else. I know it isn't easy, I happen to have discipline and will power to do it, but I know others who couldn't just make that choice. I married and had children, got a job, had friends. Let me tell you, it felt great! I laughed at people who go around making problems for themselves to solve, and reveled in the fact that the world was not as complicated as it once seemed. I decided to adopt the moderation in all things philosophy. Today, I function in society, but lately, that old spectre from my past seems to be comming back to haunt me. I notice that I seem to be on some kind of biorhythmic swing of some kind and I am back to going entire days lost in thought, completely disinterested in social interaction, even with my own children and husband, I forget to bathe or fix my hair, but at the same time, the answers to things I didn't think I knew are popping into my head. Just a few days after telling a friend of mine that I don't know how to speak spanish, I was carrying on conversations in spanish with the busboy at a mexican restaurant. It all started with my husband needing a napkin and not being able to communicate it to the boy, and suddenly I just knew how to ask for it. And everything else my husband told me to ask. It was kind of wierd for everyone even though it felt kind of good. I too am afraid that I am stuck in a cycle of depression, every ten or twenty years I'm just going to fall apart or something. And because of the wierd things that have been happening to my intellectual ability, ( suddenly I can do math in my head that I never thought I coud do either) I feel strongly that there is a connection at least in my case, and that't what got me exploring the subject online. I don't know if this posting will help anyone, but It sure feels better to talk about it which is probably why it's so verbose. I hope the readers will forgive one big word.

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heyas,

i found this topic from idle browsing on a subject that never ceases to plague me. perhaps there is a point to consider: a high IQ will enable someone to more readily apprehend the workings and interplay between things, in systems.

society, life, modernity offer a miasma of systems that we seem to have to learn now; all haphazard and in competition with each other, loud and generally obnoxious. possibly whats going on - more - in the back of the more-intelligent-heads is a vague disgust at the way of things now.

take a look at one single tree: there is a SYSTEM - holistic, perfect, complex beyond our wildest imaginings and utterly humble. compare it too our greatest 'achievements' as we destroy said systems to make room for them. it is offensive irrespective of morality, politics or philosphy. any sentient being SHOULD look at our current lives and actions, collectively, and feel something other than contentment. it's the very narrowest of 'visions' combined with planet-shaking power.

it just seems the more of the 'big picture' one sees, the more reasons one accumulates to feel depressed, until it's a habit, and people then become 'other people' and on to 'those people' until the concept of humanity is synonomous with a disappointing mess.

i mean, trees never manage to depress me.

j

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I've posted on this topic before and I would now like comment on a few choice remarks made by others who have also taken the time to post their thoughts on the subject.

''"people suffering from narcississistic disorders tend to exagerate their intelligence"''

These people are usually easy enough to spot. They claim and even believe they are intelligent, but their words and actions generally belie their claims. Try having a serious, intellectual conversation with one of them and you'll see what I mean.

--

''"I have a high IQ myself, (don't believe in them anyway) and the smartest people I have met are actually people that have a lesser education and have endured life's trials the hard way."''

''Smart'' comes in many flavors, my friend. Being smart and being intelligent are not the same thing. A person can be both or neither. Having a high level of intelligence doesn't make one immune to 'life's trials' either. Life experience is the key element here.

''I listen well to these people and personally, find high achievers that crow about it very boring.''

It may bore ''you'', but when you've suffered from depression all of your life, felt stupid, lazy, and worthless, ''any'' accomplishment is wondrous and can make life finally seem worth living. And when said accomplishment is noteworthy to others, it is truly something to crow about. Being proud of one's accomplishments and boasting are not the same. I, too, find pretentious braggarts to be deathly dull, but I'm genuinely happy to hear of others' accomplishments made despite long odds, disability or adversity.

''"A highly intelligent person does not usually know they are intelligent and usually dislikes being classed as this."''

And you know this how? If they are so very intelligent, then, according to your theory (?), they obviously couldn't have told you this because they don't know it themselves. And how could they dislike being categorized as such, if they are unaware of it.

I've never known anyone (past their adolescent years) who dislikes being intelligent. On the other hand, I've known plenty of people who wish they were more intelligent and think themselves dumb. Well, okay, it does kind of suck when no one wants to play chess, scrabble, or Trivial Pursuit with you because you always win. :)

Seriously, knowing how intelligent (and smart) I am, how talented and creative I am, gives me the ammunition I need to fighting. I '''know''' I'm not dumb and that I have something to offer, that I am worth something.

--

''I have battled panic attacks, Agoraphobia and depression and won. I have studied all three since 1969. There is absolutely no correlation between high IQ and people who suffer depression or any other so-called mental disorder.''

With all of the problems you've had, how can you refer to them as "so-called mental disorders?" I'll admit I don't know anything about panic attacks, but anxiety is one of my own afflictions. And I believe phobias fall into a completely different arena. I have a very mild case of agoraphobia. But I also have a hot air balloon phobia - I'm sure there's a name for it, but I never cared enough to look it up.

I'm glad to hear you've conquered your own disabilities, but some of us are not so fortunate. I've suffered from a very severe depression all of my life and my doctors and therapists have told me - after I confronted them and told them I wanted the truth - that it is unlikely that I will ever be free on it. The best I can do is try to control it.

You obviously, very firmly believe there is no connection between a high IQ and depression. It would be wonderful if you could share some scientific evidence with the rest of us. After all, those of us who have posted here or read this thread are looking for evidence of a connection or the lack of a connection.

--

''It takes guts to deal with depression but at the end, we are wiser for it and thus, we help others. Research all you like, go on the internet, but I go to the horse's mouth! That's power and that's intelligence!''

It truly does take 'guts' to deal with depression. Intestinal fortitude I've sadly lacked at times -- resulting in two suicide attempts; one rather half-hearted attempt and one which was a very, very close call. But since I sought treatment suicide is no longer an option and I've become very outspoken when it comes to depression and other mental illnesses. If sharing my story and my pain can help someone else find the courage to get help, in spite of the stigma still attached to mental illness, then I'll tell anyone and everyone who will listen.

--

''I have never thought of myself as extremely smart per se--never made excellent grades in school, don't give a crap about politics--but I have dealt with maladjustment throughout the course of my life.''

I grew up being told I was stupid because my grades were less than stellar. If I hadn't learned my IQ was over 150, I probably would have eventually grown to believe the hurtful things my parents said to me. But even now, when I'm going through a bad spell, it's hard not to fall back into that old way of thinking - I'm stupid and worthless, I can't do anything right, and so on.

''At 25, with two college degrees, I can't hold a job--people see me as standoffish, weird, pedantic and boring.''

I only have a high school diploma. I have difficulty finding and keeping jobs due to the depression and to ADD - this is one of the reasons I like things like writing, painting, textile arts, photography, and research. I like being able to work at my own pace in a non-structured work environment, and enjoy a creative and intellectually stimulating atmosphere.

My anxiety caused me to become very withdrawn which gave people the impression that I was aloof or anti-social. And I've been insulted because I have an extensive vocabulary and I'm not afraid to use it.

I can't say I've ever been considered boring, though. One of the greatest compliments I have ever received was when an acquaintance told me I am "strange but interesting." :) Better than normal and boring IMO.

--

''I'm a musician and that the psychiatric drugs killed my creativity... temporarily for sure... and maybe some of it for good.''

Some meds will do this. I'd rather give up than go on living without being able to write my stories. My psychiatrist changed my meds and tried combos until we found something seems to help. The dosage needs to be adjusted a couple of times a year to compensate for seasonal changes, but once we do this, I can continue to function pretty well. (I also have to deal with Seasonal Affective Disorder.) Please don't condemn all meds because one or even a few have let you down. It can take time to find the right one for you. It took me almost ten years and countless medications before we found the combination I'm on now.

--

''I see that often average people try to put bright people down... and too often they succeed... someone brighter or more creative than the average person shouldn't be modified so that person would become more like the average one... use it instead!''

I agree wholeheartedly. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who are above average in intelligence, more talented than your average person, or brilliantly creative who cause a lot of the defensiveness, intimidation, and even ridicule. Just because a person may have an IQ that is off the scale, or is the kind of person who can play any musical instrument he picks up even if he's never touched one before, or because he can sit down and almost effortlessly write a bestseller or solve a complex mathmatical problem without batting an eye, doesn't make him any better than anyone else. I despise snobs, elitists who try to make people without the same gift, skill or talent feel inferior.

So you people who feel the need to insult or belittle someone because their IQ is higher than yours, or because they're creative enough to write novels or invent cool little gadgets...grow up. For those of us who fight depression or other mental illnesses, and also happen to be blessed with a high IQ or beyond average creativity, remember this...we pay for our gifts with our sweat, blood, and occasionally our sanity and sometimes even our lives.

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I believe the issue is primarily attributable to a flaw that evolves in childhood. Children adapt to their environment: from birth their very existence is dependent on the continued support and protection of their parents (an abandoned baby dies). When the parental environment and stimulus is badly awry the child has to make extreme judgements about what it needs to do to continue to exist - i.e. to continue to retain its precarious position with its parent(s).

With 'genius' intelligence there is a significant contradiction that is very difficult for the child to resolve: they are brilliant at processing and evaluating most of what they encounter. However, in the case of relationships (and critically the prime relationship) they are working with bad data. But, this bad data feels like a given - it has been present from such an early age that it feels as correct and automatic as breathing; it is the first thing that the individual really 'knew'. It just happens to be wrong.

It is my own theory that disrupted brain chemistry follows this 'learned imbalance' rather than vice versa.

I also believe (and have some experience) that it can be managed through the right psychological methods (rather than by chemical intervention).

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Even though there are a few true voices out there saying that, yes, there is a connection and those who are gifted or talented, and our geniuses, artists, writers, mathematicians and other brilliant minds will often suffer from loneliness, sadness and maladjustment even to the point of pathology, often they are outnumbered by the many voices yelling the opposite right back. I don't know if the majority just doesn't see, or if they are motivated by jealousy or if they simply don't want to believe there could be a dark side to those gifts, whatever the reasons they are inconsequential. What is important is for us to somehow create a community and support each other with the reality of the connection between genius and mental 'illness' and, as is the case here, for those who found success to support those who are stuggling. In my journey from a bright and maladjusted gifted kid to a drooling, over-medicated sub-moron and back again, I learned to never underestimate the shrewdness of stupid people on a power trip and to keep my mouth SHUT (especially in regards to making smart-assed comments about being God to grumpy night shift nurses with a desperate itch to use that thorazine syringe). Later I found out about Dabrowski's theory of positive disintegration, utilized cognitive behavior therapy and read books like 'Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnosis of Gifted Children and Adults' to get a realistic perspective of where my brain's dismal anarchy was coming from. I realized that a lot of us go through these trials and have a difficult time dealing with therapists and psychiatrists who are under the delusion that mental illness and genius are mutually exclusive states. The fact is no matter how you look at this thing, if you have a high IQ, you are not normal and will not ever be normal and there is no point in trying to force the issue. What is normal for high IQ people is to feel things very intensely whether it be an intellectual or emotional issue and to have a very deep perpective on 'life, the universe and everything' sometimes to the point of being downright weird or just plain incomprehensible to those not sharing our mental perspective. And maybe just as incomprehensible is the desperate loneliness that genius can bring to it's sufferers, who can't simply just be themselves and expect to fit in. Maybe the internet is the best thing that happened to us all, giving us a place to leave our thoughts out here where others like us can find them and realize they aren't so alone. (Posted 11/16/05)

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I think that there is a significant misconception involved in a number of these posts (not least the one that precedes this).

The challenge that has been described by Brad and others is not related to intelligence, it is (I mean this in the kindest way possible) related to stupidity. Let me explain.

Whilst a "genius" may have exceptional mental processing power for SOME areas, the problems being described are really those of an inability to integrate and/or form functional social relationships. The ability to form these relationships is also a kind of intelligence (since it is brain-related). I suggest that someone holding the belief that they are "very intelligent" but who is suffering from problems relating to social integration, is misguided in their initial belief.

If one is prepared to recognise that one has very poor skills (or is stupid at interpersonal communication) there is a stronger platform from which to develop.

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Hmmm... why is it so quickly assumed that the root cause of depression is a failure to form social relationships?

Considering long-term, uni-polar depression, I am led to wonder whether the root cause might be something more biological in nature. Inability to maintain a proper sleep schedule, eating routine, etc. cause a general fatigue that makes it difficult to function and cope with everyday life normally.

I guess I am concerned that labeling depression as a "social" problem keeps some of us from pursuing appropriate treatment.

I am ashamed of my disorder. Something "social" should be something I can fix without meds. I know meds work for me, and yet I do not take them. All the while, maybe I should.

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Harvard has done studies to see if there was a link between mental illness and creativity. There has been a significant link. There has also been a link between high IQ and mental illness and depresssion. Whether it was later in life, or early childhood. There has also been a link between the creative genius and mental illness. Whether you are looking for a distinct line between all those or just a slight connection. They seem to fit, with the tie in being that for people with bipolar it be unseen sometimes because the racing thoughts and compulsive behaviors can hide the ability to see the talents. On the other hand it's known that manic depression tends to produce lot's of creativity. A study was done by a team of psychologist, they have found what might be important in the link between creativity and certain mental illness. It's called latent inhibition, it's an unconscious process. This filters the information that comes into your brain for what's not important. Many animals have it. Schizophrenics have lowered latent inhibition this has been established for a long time, the data coming into the brain just pours thru wihtout being filtered and gets overwhelmed. What's new is the idea that creative individuals share lowered latent inhibition. The team of psychologists that authored the recent report found that students who either scored strongly on tests of creativity or already had significant creative achievements to their credit also tended to have lowered latent inhibition. But the study found they had something else as well: high IQs Obviously, there is much more still to explain. For one thing, latent inhibition has been associated mostly with schizophrenia, but bipolar disorder is much more commonly linked with creative genius. So for the idea that there is a link between creativity and mental illness and high IQ with all or one, is POSSIBLE.

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It seems plausible that there would be a causal link between intelligence and mental disorders.

Perhaps highly intelligent people are more apt to have DIFFERENT personalities. Their intelligence may allow them to craftily manufacture an external "persona" that is acceptable in the social system they are a part of, but the "secret person of the heart" is all alone. They find it difficult to make deep and meaningful connections with other people(because the other people are not as deep and complicated as they are, neither do they appreciate things the same way). Perhaps, as a result, they lack a feeling of belonging. Having a feeling of belonging in one's social system is likely an important component of happiness. Hard-core intellectualism of any variety is a deviant behavior. I venture to say that there are very few niches in our current social system which are ideally suited for idealistic intellectuals.

If is stressful to feel alone, misunderstood, under-appreciated, and out of place in your social system.

Stress can trigger mental illness.

Perhaps we all need a feeling of belonging. Who knows?

This is a mysterious topic. In the end, may our inner-drive be to find love and understanding. May we make good use of the 30,000, or so, days of life we have. May we seize the day with passion and enthusiasm. May we never forget the value of a good sense of humor.

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Some interesting posts on this thread. I stumbled across it while surfing.

Personally, I find that most highly intelligent people know that they're intelligent. Whether they admit to it or not is of course another question entirely.

As for the links between High IQ and mental disorders, I would not be surprised at all if there were some links.

I come from a very intelligent family.

Myself, my brother and my sister all test in the 140 to 155 range. Clearly there's some strong genetics involved. My mother speaks 3 languages, my father speaks 4. However, my mother suffers from paranoid schizophrenia.

One study of a particular sect of Jews (I forget the name, but they marry almost exclusively within their sect) has an extremely disproportionate numbers of engineers, doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc with average IQ scores testing well above the 100 norm (120+ on average), but have a much higher than normal incident of Tay Sachs and other neurological disorders.

Now this may also be coincidental as those traits may also have been incidentally transmitted genetically along with high IQ, but given our overall lack of understanding of the workings of the human brain, it would not surprise me if there were some links.

After all, it's said that the line between genius and insanity is very thin.

On another note regarding depression and some other disorders, they may not be so much a genetic linkage but environmental due to being more intelligent than average.

Unfortunately, in Western society it is seen as a bad thing to stand out from the crowd in any way, whether it is creatively or academically. Call it the nerd/geek syndrome. Those who operate outside the norm tend to be ostracized or ridiculed by their peers, and in some cases persecuted. This takes place not only at the academic levels (bullies, or exclusion from peer groups), but in the workplace (nobody likes a brown-noser, someone who shows up others, etc.) and in society at large (Gallileo anyone?).

The normal psychological responses can range from acceptance (say what you want), to withdrawal (I'm not talking to anyone), to pattern deception (I don't know what the answer is). All of these responses have social consequences, while some of them will have long term psychological impacts on our behaviors and responses. It wouldn't be surprising if it lead to all kinds of social disorders ranging from poor social skills (no practice because people ostracize you), to dissociative disorders (you won't talk to me, so I'll just spend my time in my head).

Even if one deals with all of the difficulties of socialization, there is the fundamental "curse" of being smarter than the people around you.

The fact is, if you're highly intelligent you do *not* view the world the same way as everyone else. You see patterns and outcomes that others do not. Whether it's your view of yourself in relationship to religion, the interactions of people in general, the long or short term impacts of business and work decisions, or politics and world affairs.

That you see things differently leads to one generally unavoidable problem, that of being lonely. Most of us do not have the benefit of having people around with whom we can share our innermost thoughts, observations and analyses. Not because we do not wish to share them, but because those around us fail to understand what we are trying to express, or cannot understand our thought processes that lead to our conclusions.

While there will be those that are bright enough to understand what we are trying to say and appreciate the intelligence of our analyses, we may find conversations with those people unfulfilling if they are unable to meaningfully participate in the discussion. A one-sided conversation that becomes tantamount to spewing your thoughts to an empty room. There is talk, but no discussion. The other participant in the conversation has little to contribute.

The last consequence of this manifests when we are trying to find a meaningful spouse. Our potential/current spouse may be warm-hearted, kind, generous, and emotionally fulfilling, but intellectually not challenging. Given the societal expectation that we are given that our spouses will be our emotional and intellectual partners, we often find ourselves trapped in a relationship that is not as complete as we would wish, either settling for no intellectual fulfillment, or seeking it outside of the relationship, thus increasing the probability of failure.

So does High IQ and emotional/psychological disorders have a correlation? I haven't seen any studies to positively correlate the two, but my hunch is that whether it's genetic or environmental or both, there is one.

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I was reading up about mental disorders while studying for the regional brain bee today. Many of the neurological disorders that were described by the Society for Neuroscience seemed to have degenerative effects of one or more parts of the brain. I found this somewhat disconcerting because I've suffered from obsessive-compulsive disorder since the age of five. So, I browsed through some scientific journals, and found that their is "strong" correlation between OCD and deficiencies in memory, organization, and general intelligence. The illness modifies the basal ganglia, and can also affect the frontal cortex (the region of the brain responsible for personality, complex thought, problem solving, etc.). Also, children with OCD generally do poorer on tests than "normal, healthy children".

My God. I thought I could handle the constant obsessions, the panic attacks, the imploding sense of depression. But I can't handle this. I'm so scared of losing my mind. The whole purpose of my life is seek further knowledge, to explore the unknown. I don't have time for progressive brain damage. If my IQ ever falls below 150, I want to be euthanised.

Low Latent Inhibition.

Low latent inhibitions.

"The brains of creative people are more open to outside stimuli. "Latent inhibition" is a process they describe as a way to filter out irrelevant information. Human beings and every animal in the kingdom have this as a survival technique to stay focused on what is important. For example: a person with normal levels of latent inhibitions would look at a yellow desk lamp and see only a yellow desk lamp and ponder only relevant information about it: a device that when switched on can provide light to a localized area. A person with low latent inhibitions would not only see a yellow desk lamp, they may also think of bananas, Spongebob Squarepants, or Spongebob Squarepants eating a banana, or possibly concoct a whole dissertation in their head about whether or not Spongebob likes to eat bananas, or how he could get them down in the ocean" Taken from: http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1500106

A good point of low latent inhibition is that when combined with a high IQ it leads to creativity. Of course when your brain is flooded with an overload of information we have to have the ability to proces it all and weed out the thoughts we don't need and only hold on to the good ideas. I myself have low latent inhibition and am a writter with an IQ of 127. I over think things and my train of thought often goes off track and splits into a hundred different ways, but because my IQ is above average (not a genius like yourself) I am able to filter those thoughts and not let them bog me down. Perhaps you should look low latent inhibition up some more, it could explain why you are the way you are.

I just happened to find this on accident. I find it very annoying that alot of the so called answers so far offer very little. While I have no idea what my IQ actually is. I have never really wanted to know either. See, more and more I think the number is pretty useless anyways. It gives you something to compair, but there are just so many different types of intellengence and differences in people that it's really only good for showing that people are good at such and such particular test. So, is there a connection with being good at IQ tests and having mental disorders? Well, I don't know.

In addition you have talked a bit about something that I would like to add to. While an IQ might give you the potential to be smart, arrogance tends to lead directly into ignorance. So through this mechanizm, people who could be smart turn themselves into idiots by thinking they already have all the answers and not allowing themselves to find out they were wrong. What everyone should strive for, whether smart or not, is humility, even if its hard sometimes.

I myself struggle with depression, anxiety, OCD characteristics, and some level of agoraphobia. I also struggle with extream fatigue, several food allergies, and anemia. For me its more of just a lack of interest. I get easily frustraited with people. Everwhere I go I see stuff that makes no sense and is counter prodictive. People do crazy things that I just don't like seeing. I get frustraited that I can't help change things that badly need to be corrected. When I try to explain, they don't understand. I tend to over compress ideas sometimes. Or I get frustraited and ramble and babble off on tangents. Well, it sometimes takes volumns to fully explain something. I think our culture is weird and often it makes no sense.

I also want to address these people that talk about wrong thinking. Now, your not specific, so I can only assume. But here is what I see. I have met so many people that think that they are the only ones with a valid perspective or oppinion, that its enough to drive a person mad. The vast majority of things in the world do not have a right or wrong answer. They are mearly a point of view. Also, the state of the world is not ingrained on the mind. We are like a blank piece of paper and thats part of why some people can have ideas that are just so out there. Also, you must understand that alot of this so called absolute science, is not absolute. Its not perfect, its often wrong, and often is just the oppinion of someone who is in the right place at the right time. Along with this we have corporate industries today that sell psydoscience as correct. They do this because it supports their product. Often they are not even trying to look at the big picture, they are bias from the get go. We live in a culture today that seems to contain alot of people who are sever conformists who can't handle the fact that people are capable of near infinite possiblities. Truely you can rationalize nearly anything. When you think someone is wrong, before you judge them and declare they are wrong, actually listen to what they have to say and why they believe it. Try to walk in their shoes and understand why they might think what they do. You might actually learn something. This issue is a big part of why we are in Iraq right now. A great many people could have told you from the start what was going to happen.

Part of what your seeing is that when you have these disorders you tend to spend your time doing things that lead toward more intellectual endevors. For example, if you have anxiety and some degree of agoraphobia, then what are you spending your time doing in place of the norm? See :) . You are also given a very different perspective through the filters that you see the world through.

What I would like to mention and bring up is the connection with diet. There are studies that prove that you can increase or decrease your IQ bassed upon diet. Many mental illnesses have some sort of connection with diet. There are several schools throughout this country that use diet very effectively to massively reduce their students problamatic behaviors. This is one of the reasons I have little to do with most anyone in the psychology field these days. They have a tendancy to over focas on all the wrong factors which leads them to have rotten expectations for their treatments. Which should be evidence to them that their treatments are junk, but they are to over focased to see it. They tend to think a pill is the answer to everything. Another reason is that the corporate sector these days has never been more corrupt then right now. Psychologists are in a position that they tend to be very very affected by this corruption, even if they mean well. What they should focas more on is the field of nutrition. There are formulas that can be followed to alter your brain and bodies chemicals with natural substances and food. The problem to some extent with actually trying to cause some large change with food is of course that food does not have enough of a concentrated form. By natural substances, I mean vitamins, herbs, and pretty much anything in that realm. The difference being that these are a substance used and needed by the body. They are a substance natural to our diet. Many of the chemicals in the brain are also used throughout the body. Many chemicals are created in the body itself and have to cross the blood brain barrier. This fact is a large reason why so many medications have such horrible side effects. They take control of these chemicals out of the bodies hands and cause manfunction elsewhere in the body. You can not disconnect the body and mind.

Bah, I had an idea I was trying to get to when I was reading this, but now I lost exactly where I was going. My absent mindedness has stuck again. Anyways, I hope this answers some questions. Sorry if I don't provide enough context. Anyone who wants to reach me can do so at www.myspace.com/skorian . I often find it easier to answer specific questions that actually have some useful purpose. The question above, is sort of just nonesense. Its just a context that leads to other things.

How I found this topic is I am trying to find if there is a connection or relationship between OCD and Autism. The vast majority of people who have autism these days have it because they were vacinated. Its caused by the mercury and other toxins contained there in.

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